Author Topic: C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?  (Read 1526 times)

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Offline Andreas

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« on: March 14, 2017, 01:42:17 PM »
Hello

Can you tell me wether the C clarinet is commonly used in Greek or Klezmer music style? - Thank you very much for any comment!

Offline Jack Campin

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 02:15:23 PM »
Very commonly in klezmer (from way back, Belf used it).  Greek, not very often and it would be interesting to get some names.

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 02:36:58 PM »
very common in Greek if you play as the traditional Greek masters used to play .... in more modern times, there has been a transition to Bb and more recently to the A (LA) clarinet, however the traditional songs, when one wants to play them in pure traditional fashion, are played on a C ....


players are numerous  ... to name but a few of the true masters: Karakostas, Margelis, Giaouzos, Karagiannis, Kapsalis (Polyxronis, father of Grigoris), Anestopoulos, Halkias (Taso), Malliaras, Rountas, Batzis (Mitsio/Dimitris), Halkias (Pericles), Harisiadis, Batzis (Vasili) .. all of the above are now deceased. there are many others .. of those alive and fortunately still with us today, Halkias (PetroLoukas) still plays the same C clarinet he did 60 or more years ago .... My sincere apologies to yhe memory of those masters I have omitted. This is just a list based upon my quick thinking at this moment and not sitting down to think through carefully ....


all of the above played C clarinets ..... they may have used a Bb or at times an A, but for almost al of them, the main instrument was a C (DO) clarinet/klarino ...  :beer: :beer: :beer: ;)

Offline SOLO

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 03:02:09 PM »
 :TU: :TU: :TU:

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 03:53:16 PM »
very common in Greek if you play as the traditional Greek masters used to play .... in more modern times, there has been a transition to Bb and more recently to the A (LA) clarinet, however the traditional songs, when one wants to play them in pure traditional fashion, are played on a C ....


players are numerous  ... to name but a few of the true masters: Karakostas, Margelis, Giaouzos, Karagiannis, Kapsalis (Polyxronis, father of Grigoris), Anestopoulos, Halkias (Taso), Malliaras, Rountas, Batzis (Mitsio/Dimitris), Halkias (Pericles), Harisiadis, Batzis (Vasili) .. all of the above are now deceased. there are many others .. of those alive and fortunately still with us today, Halkias (PetroLoukas) still plays the same C clarinet he did 60 or more years ago .... My sincere apologies to yhe memory of those masters I have omitted. This is just a list based upon my quick thinking at this moment and not sitting down to think through carefully ....


all of the above played C clarinets ..... they may have used a Bb or at times an A, but for almost al of them, the main instrument was a C (DO) clarinet/klarino ...  :beer: :beer: :beer: ;)

Yes!!!
In Greek demotika the C clarinet was the most used. Just listen to the recordings of those klaitzides that Mporlos named.
For a start, try: Karakostas, Kyriakatis, Anestopoulos, Batzis, and Halkias.

When I started klarino, it was still mainly C klarina. And that is what I still play. I will use my A for two or three songs where I like its tone, and I use my Bb mainly for only two songs. 99% of my jobs I only play the C.
I'll include a photo of the great Vasilis Saleas with his C klarino.

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Offline Andreas

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 04:10:51 PM »
So great. Thank you for posting the names of those musicians!
Can you suggest a high quality instrument that would suit this kind of music style?
Thank you!

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2017, 05:13:35 PM »
So great. Thank you for posting the names of those musicians!
Can you suggest a high quality instrument that would suit this kind of music style?
Thank you!


the very best, in my opnion, is a Buffet C albert ... difficult to find but worth the hunt ! ... i would also consider a Treibert C, a Couesnon C or a Kohlert C, all being vintage instruments

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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2017, 09:22:49 PM »

the very best, in my opnion, is a Buffet C albert ... difficult to find but worth the hunt ! ... i would also consider a Treibert C, a Couesnon C or a Kohlert C, all being vintage instruments

Yes, there are many good ones. I have had several different makes and all were at least good. I played my Ramponi for 10 years  straight. My favorites are my Buffets, but I have an excellent Henry Gunckle I got from a fellow GTC member. I have played several  of the German and Austrian C klarina and they were good too. I liked the Jean Martin and the Wurlitzer also.
I think there are 3 or 4 C klarina on ebay right now.

By the way, the klaritzis from the Eptasimos group, popular in Greece now, saw me playing my C and liked it. He told me when the group plays for panegyria etc in Arkadia and Peloponnisos, he often uses the C because it's popular there.

And watch and listen to this:

https://youtu.be/zjlxmTEb1r0
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:03:02 PM by Kalakos »
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Offline Andreas

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 01:01:16 PM »
...I played my Ramponi for 10 years  straight. My favorites are my Buffets, but I have an excellent Henry Gunckle I got from a fellow GTC member. I have played several  of the German and Austrian C klarina and they were good too. I liked the Jean Martin and the Wurlitzer also.
...the very best, in my opnion, is a Buffet C albert ... difficult to find but worth the hunt ! ... i would also consider a Treibert C, a Couesnon C or a Kohlert C, all being vintage instruments
This may and will be a valuable resource for me in the future and for others right now. Unfortunately I currently do not have the self confidence to evaluate if a concrete vintage instrument is worth the asked price. I am therefore looking for a new instrument. Can you suggest a good clarinet model that is available as a new item?

Offline Merlin

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2017, 05:56:30 AM »
Early Klezmer clarinetists also played C instruments. Check out early Dave Tarras, Naftule Brandwein, Belf...

Bb became more popular but the really traditional recordings were most often made using a C.
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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2017, 09:52:14 AM »
This may and will be a valuable resource for me in the future and for others right now. Unfortunately I currently do not have the self confidence to evaluate if a concrete vintage instrument is worth the asked price. I am therefore looking for a new instrument. Can you suggest a good clarinet model that is available as a new item?
Most people like Amati or Hammerschmit.  Amati had some issues with the wood cracking a few years ago but I think they corrected that.  Either one is good if you're lookiing for something new.  You will want to check the warranties in case there are any issues.
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Offline Andreas

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2017, 12:23:49 PM »
Most people like Amati or Hammerschmit.
Here Karl Hammerschmidt and Amati, both have not that good reputation. I could not find a lot of information about Frank Hammerschmidt but his "19a C" clarinet (offer: see here) would be still in my price range. What do yout think about that offer? I hope Frank's instruments are better than his website is  :laugh: .

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2017, 01:45:25 PM »
if you're interested in Hammerschmidt then try to get hold of our member Papa007 or click on his user name or hammerschmidt to get to his website.  he was giving some discounts for GTC members.  not sure if he still does it.  it wouldn't hurt to compare.
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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 01:02:43 AM »
Here Karl Hammerschmidt and Amati, both have not that good reputation. I could not find a lot of information about Frank Hammerschmidt but his "19a C" clarinet (offer: see here) would be still in my price range. What do yout think about that offer? I hope Frank's instruments are better than his website is  :laugh: .

Hello:
The klarino you posted has way more rings than are popular with Greek klaritzides. Most prefer 4 rings, 2 on top and 2 on bottom. Many prefer no matoyialia on top (only 2 rings on bottom).
Right now on ebay there is a good, used DO klarino, a Kohlert. It has 2 rings and is cheaper than the new ones. The seller is a clarinet repair tech who is well known by GTC member Mporlos. It has been fully refurbished. It is one that I would consider buying if I needed another C klarino (I don't because I have several).

Here is the link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142316017116
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Offline a_hennig

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2017, 07:15:35 AM »
Here Karl Hammerschmidt and Amati, both have not that good reputation. I could not find a lot of information about Frank Hammerschmidt but his "19a C" clarinet (offer: see here) would be still in my price range. What do yout think about that offer? I hope Frank's instruments are better than his website is  :laugh: .

To keep reputations in perspective, I would note that my local clarinet tech's attitude about Albert system clarinets in general is that "they're folk music instruments."  Note that most people raised in the classical music system have little appreciation and less understanding of folk music or the instruments that folk musicians use.

So my thought, when looking at instruments for folk music purposes, is that while a good tech's advice can be valuable as to the condition and/or repair needs of an individual instrument, the advice of good players who actually play the music you're intending the instrument for might be a better guide as to appropriate models. No one trained in classical clarinet is going to recommend a two or four ring model to you, but there are good reasons why folk performers prefer them.

Offline Andreas

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 08:11:56 AM »
another option....
I got in contact to one dealer and one instrument maker. They both shared the opinion that these three clarinets are specifically designed for children as beginners' instruments:
Schreiber D-10
F. A. Uebel 611
Oscar Adler 215 C
They would all three be hard to play with medium sized or even big (male) hands.

The Frank Hammerschmidt 19a C is the only new clarinet in the price range between EUR 800 and EUR 2000 that I could find. Of course there are others that cost more (Oscar Adler 220C, Hüying, Schwenk & Seggelke, ...).

Right now on ebay there is a good, used DO klarino, a Kohlert. It has 2 rings and is cheaper than the new ones. The eller is a clarinet repair tech who is well known by GTC member Mporlos. It has been fully refurbished. It is one that I would consider buying if I needed another C klarino (I don't because I have several).
Thank you very much for that hint!

The klarino you posted has way more rings than are popular with Greek klaritzides. Most prefer 4 rings, 2 on top and 2 on bottom. Many prefer no matoyialia on top (only 2 rings on bottom).
OK. Good to know.

To keep reputations in perspective, I would note that my local clarinet tech's attitude about Albert system clarinets in general is that "they're folk music instruments."  Note that most people raised in the classical music system have little appreciation and less understanding of folk music or the instruments that folk musicians use. So my thought, when looking at instruments for folk music purposes, is that while a good tech's advice can be valuable as to the condition and/or repair needs of an individual instrument, the advice of good players who actually play the music you're intending the instrument for might be a better guide as to appropriate models. No one trained in classical clarinet is going to recommend a two or four ring model to you, but there are good reasons why folk performers prefer them.
Very good point! My teacher has a very classic background. I will definitely think about that.

Thank you all for your replies!

Offline Jack Campin

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 05:19:38 PM »
Quote
these three clarinets are specifically designed for children as beginners' instruments:
Schreiber D-10
F. A. Uebel 611
Oscar Adler 215 C
They would all three be hard to play with medium sized or even big (male) hands.

If you have a background playing the recorder that sort of judgment sounds utterly dimwitted. I have (as measured by glove size) average male hands, and I have played every size of recorder from garklein in C (about 6 inches long) to F subcontrabass (about seven feet high).  The garklein is the only one that's slightly tricky, because the sides of my fingers are actually touching each other.  Every halfway serious recorder player does the same - none of them are players of only one size, and all can jump between any two sizes at a moment's notice.

I've played every size of clarinet from a simple system sopranino in F to a Turkish one in G.  I simply don't notice the change in spacing, at all.  It doesn't register even as a variation, let alone as a problem.

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 11:12:18 PM »
I agree with Jack in that the spacing be initially appear to problematic, however you should be able to overcome it with practice ... there are some giant hands playing a "C" clarinet ... look at some clips of PetroLouka Halkia ... he is a big man with large hands and he plays one hell of a great C clarinet;) :beer:

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C Clarinet - used in Greek and / or Klezmer music?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 07:38:24 AM »
I agree with both Jack and Mporlos on the spacing question, a C clarinet should be playable by anyone who wants to get used to the spacing, same as for a G clarinet on the other end of the spacing scale. But the manufacturers themselves are causing part of this confusion - on their websites, they specifically target beginning children. Hammerschmidt does this too, even though their "kids" C clarinet is no different than their other Albert clarinets (Saloniki model).  I think they do this because it expands their market, which in turn keeps it from becoming a specialty item that would be more expensive to produce.

The models you referenced do have what I think are rather odd choices for the upper joint trill keys, unless you are thinking only of beginners, but I suspect you could special order one with the keys you want.

 

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