Author Topic: Bb and A Clarinet Lengths  (Read 27036 times)

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Offline zephyris

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2013, 04:54:39 PM »
how long is the barrel kokoni?

Online Mporlos

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2013, 08:05:36 PM »
I am by no means "an authority" on the topic, but, my observations of many horns, interactions with many experienced Techs and reading any info I have been able to find:

The "B" stamping generally does refer to Bb (HP or LP).
It's possible, but very unlikely that it could also refer to a B# - finding a true B# clarinet is a rarity
So, bottom line, you would expect it to be Bb (HP or LP)

General "rule of thumb", as most of know/assume: the pitch is directly proportional to the length of the instrument, with 23 1/2 (or thereabouts) being LP and 22 1/2 (or thereabouts) being HP ..... but .... there are exceptions to the rule:

I have seen (and old Buffet trade magazines confirm), a clearly marked Bb LP Buffet that is significantly longer than 23 1/2.
Likewise, I have seen a Bb LP Buffet that is significantly shorter than 23 1/2.
The net conclusion is that bore diameter/tonehole size/length proportionality is what determines the pitch.

German klarina become even more interesting ---  as a rule, they tend to have a larger bore. As a result, they tend to be shorter. As a further result, the barrels on German klarina tend to be significantly (as in 8 to 10 mm) shorter than on their French counterparts.The net result, is that many vintage German horns, are LP even though the length (without playing them) would suggest they are likely HP.

To display how complex a subject this is --- take a look at the University of South Dakota's Clarinet Collection site - you will see many, many very old Buffet albert clarinets, unmarked as to pitch, where in some cases the instrument is HP and in others it's LP yet the length, is the same/similar.

Unless you test it out with a tuner, you cannot be 100% of the actual pitch - I know this is a little different from what you are asking Kokoni

Now, to make things even more complex --- listen carefully to some of these old master's recordings --- they are actually playing HP horns.

So --- Kokoni ..... if it's marked B, it's a Bb, in HP or LP. While you would "think" it's HP due to the length, the only way to be sure is to run it through a tuner and see what you come up with ...

Mporlos

Offline kokonis

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 02:37:11 AM »
Thanks guys, the length of the barrel is 56mm or 2  3/16 inches Zephiri. Thanks Mporlo for as usual a very thorough answer. It appears to be a HP bflat, sometimes a tuner is only a guide and not 100% conclusive. I also have a strange problem with a Rampone Blat ( Not the one I bought off you Zephiri) all the tenons are genuine Rampone with serial numbers, barrel and bell Rampone, measures 23.5inches so its a Bflat, but the klarino is flat and needs a barrel of 56mm to bring it in tune. I have checked each section of the bore for cracks as that will cause a clarinet to go flat, with no idea what may cause this.

Offline kokonis

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 03:36:30 AM »
I put my tuner on it ( a clip on Cherub WST-523) and it registered A# which is of course Bflat at 450Htz when I played C on the clarinet. I would assume then it must be a Bflat High Pitch. The interesting thing is it matches the song that Taki Louka is playing  on his fingering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETcJEtMbDNQ   .... so I guess Taki is using a High Pitch Bflat.

Online Mporlos

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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 07:31:02 AM »
I put my tuner on it ( a clip on Cherub WST-523) and it registered A# which is of course Bflat at 450Htz when I played C on the clarinet. I would assume then it must be a Bflat High Pitch. The interesting thing is it matches the song that Taki Louka is playing  on his fingering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETcJEtMbDNQ   .... so I guess Taki is using a High Pitch Bflat.

in responding to your posting Kokoni, first things first:

1. Yia Sou Taki Louka, arhonta/Long Life to you Taki Louka, Nobleman --- man, I love his playing, a master, just like his 1st cousin Petro Louka.

Hahaha ... now that the above is stated, lets' get to your posting! ... hahaha ..

2. Yes ... interesting isnt it? See in my previous response - I suggested the same, that some of the masters (especially the old, previous generation) played HP horns in their recordings !!! ...... I recall one day, I was playing along to Petro Louka. After not being able to match the sound, I pulled out a HP horn DO, and guess what - BINGO, perfectly in tune with Petro Louka. HP horns, especially Buffet, are very, very sweet sounding ! .....

Kokoni --- use that HP horn brother! ..... Mporlos

 

Offline kokonis

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2013, 04:16:15 AM »
Yes (Niko)Mporlo, you're right ,there is a use for the high pitch klarina too. And thats probably why they use them sometimes because they are sweeter.

Offline saleas

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2013, 02:14:03 PM »
I also believe they are sweeter than the low pitch.  It seems like every time you make changes to something of quality, you almost always come up on the short side.  The HP has a certain ring to it that is very sweet.  You cannot simply stretch the instrument out to make it play LP without any consequences.  Maybe this is why many Greek Clarinetists actually play with a HP.
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Online Mporlos

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2013, 06:24:37 PM »
i have tried, without success, to conivince a few local guys to get together and play HP ... a laouto, ntefi,violi (violin)  and me .... i would love to play an old-styled kompania/group lie this, tuned to the HP clarinet .. much to my disappointment, no takers!  :sad:

Offline kokonis

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 03:13:14 AM »
I  know you would   love to play H P klarino Mporlo. I would love to also. I guess  your musicians probably wouldn't mind so much if they all had a spare instrument  that was tuned accordingly, on stage so the changeover wasn't such a big deal. Food for thought maybe??  Niko

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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 05:06:01 AM »
I  know you would   love to play H P klarino Mporlo. I would love to also. I guess  your musicians probably wouldn't mind so much if they all had a spare instrument  that was tuned accordingly, on stage so the changeover wasn't such a big deal. Food for thought maybe??  Niko

Yia sou Yianni/Kokoni! ..... we do think alike file ! .... Yes, that is a great idea and I hope one day to see it realized ! ..... Niko/Mporlo

Offline Mehmet

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2013, 11:20:20 PM »
Wonderful advice in this thread. It was great reading some stuff here, thanks guys.

Online Kalakos

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2013, 03:27:37 PM »
You know, so-called "concert pitch" has not always been A = 440. It has changed in many ways over the years. In fact, I understand that some top flight classical orchestras today regularly tune a few centimes HIGHER than A = 440.
So, here is my point. If in your band you are playing with string instruments, violin, laouto, guitar, what the heck difference does it make whether you are at A = 440 or not?  The old timers did not care. I always play DO klarina, and as we all know, most of our old klarina will play flat from "concert pitch" with our open mpc's and soft reeds. So the other instruments tune to the klarino. So, like the old timers did, you just tune to the "C" note of the klarino. It is no big deal. The only problem is if you have an accordion or piano which can't be tuned.
So, if I wanted to use one of my two Bb HP klarina for gigs, the guys would just tune to it.
Just some thoughts folks.

Kalakos
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:14:08 PM by Kalakos »
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Offline khorvirap

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2017, 10:19:16 AM »
I have a Bb clarinet that is 22 and 15/16 and its an LP plays in tune
My idea is that there is music in the air, music all around us; the world is full of it, and you simply take as much as you require.  ~Edward Elgar

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« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2017, 11:54:27 AM »
I have a Bb clarinet that is 22 and 15/16 and its an LP plays in tune


yes .... late year Buffet alberts were slightly shorter .. both Bb and LA ...


the basic issue is the ratio and relationship of Bore, Tonehole size and Length. Length alone, does not determine pitch !!!


Online Mporlos

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2017, 11:57:30 AM »

yes .... late year Buffet alberts were slightly shorter .. both Bb and LA ...


the basic issue is the ratio and relationship of Bore, Tonehole size and Length. Length alone, does not determine pitch !!!


If a klarino is stamped LP or HP, then you know it is LP or HP .. if it is not stamped LP or HP, you never "really" know unless you check it with a tuner. Having said that ... a clarinet that is 22 1/2 " in length is almost certain to be an HP Bb ... a klarino that is 24" in length is almost certain to be a HP LA ...

Offline khorvirap

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« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 10:02:32 AM »
The shortest LP Bb clarinet I’ve seen that plays in tune is 22 and 3/4.... but if it’s 22 and 1/2 it’s for sure an HP.
My idea is that there is music in the air, music all around us; the world is full of it, and you simply take as much as you require.  ~Edward Elgar

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Bb and A Clarinet Lengths
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2018, 04:27:20 PM »
Yes (Niko)Mporlo, you're right ,there is a use for the high pitch klarina too. And thats probably why they use them sometimes because they are sweeter.

Right, guys. For example some of Vaios Malliaras’s recordings.
Kalakos
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