Author Topic: Ramazan Kor Sol Albert-system clarinet: report  (Read 9931 times)

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Offline a_hennig

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Ramazan Kor Sol Albert-system clarinet: report
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2017, 07:36:45 PM »
PS. I'm just presuming I'll be best off with a Bb mouthpiece – please set me straight if I'm wrong!

Yes, Bb, A, and G clarinets all use the same size mouthpiece.

... if eventually I'd want to replace the original mouthpiece with something a little more fancy while sticking with the soft "Hot and swing" reeds that the clarinet came with, what would you guys recommend? The Vandoren 5JB seems like an obvious choice, if nothing else since it's widely available, but my impression is that far from everyone on here is very impressed by it…

The problem I see here lies in the word "fancy."  I suppose you could get one gold-plated, but that is not what you want. What you want is a mouthpiece that works well for you and your clarinet, and there is no one choice that works well, let alone best, for everyone. If you are having some difficulty with your current setup, then you have good reason, and possibly a need, to explore different mouthpieces, but if you have no issues with your current mouthpiece and reed, then you do not need different mouthpiece. 

On the other hand, there's lots to be learned from trying different combinations out, and if you have access to different mouthpieces, it can be quite a worthwhile exercise, whether in the end you settle on a new mouthpiece or stay with your old one.

A mouthpiece that is substantially different from your old one will also require experimentation with reeds - it is neither one nor the other, but the combination of mouthpiece and reed that makes or breaks your results. Check out how they sound in all the registers, and pay special attention to how hard it is to get a good sound out of the weaker notes (like the low forked B-flat and the chalemeau thumb and second finger F, for example). How easy is it to play all the registers in tune with each other? Can you play the throat notes in tune with the rest of the horn? (this is where pulling out or pushing in your barrel, and often on a wooden clarinet, getting a different length barrel, is a part of the package) Can you play the altissimo register in tune? Do all the registers speak with a semblance of equal ease? Can you get a sound you like out of this mouthpiece/reed combination on your clarinet?

I personally like crystal because it tends to give a better sound in the altissimo range than other materials, but the tradeoff is  that it usually also offers more resistance in the lower registers, so finding one that works well in all the registers is a challenge. I'm currently using Vandoren A2's, which I'm sure no one else in this group would think much of.

First, though, play the mouthpiece that you have long enough to get to know it. Then, the recommended mouthpieces are probably the place to start, but there's no universally best one. You have to discover what works best for you and your clarinet.

Offline Nightingale

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« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2017, 03:24:08 AM »
Thanks for your exhaustive answer! And yes, I did suspect that the word "fancy" would raise some eyebrows. :rolleyes: It's just that the mouthpiece that came with the clarinet seemed so very… well, plain. Then again, I'm just starting out on the instrument, so who am I to tell?

Offline mysacrifice

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« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2017, 01:37:01 AM »
I really wanna buy one of Ramazan Kor's clarinets. When I have time I'll drive to Bursa and but it from their family music shop.

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« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2017, 11:43:45 PM »
I really wanna buy one of Ramazan Kor's clarinets. When I have time I'll drive to Bursa and but it from their family music shop.
let us know how it plays for you once you try one out !  :beer:

Offline Nightingale

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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2017, 11:10:36 AM »
Regarding the eternal question of mouthpieces, there's a useful post on a sibling forum that compiles various (and obviously quite subjective) recommendations:

http://www.klarinogreek.com/forum2016/showthread.php?tid=309

Offline Nightingale

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« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2017, 11:07:24 AM »
A quick update to what might well turn out a never-ending story: I went to my local music store the other day and came home with a number of mouthpieces to try out on my Kor, includung a B40 and a 5JB. On both, I played around with Hot 'n' Swing reeds, strengths 1 and 2. The B40 had a pleasant feel to it but sounded far too "straight and narrow" to my taste, although surprisingly well considering it's really made for harder reeds. The 5JB  had a much more attractive  sound, deep and rich, but I'm afraid I just don't have the skills for it yet: too much air felt like it was just passing through and higher registers were simply out of reach for my beginner's embouchure.

So I had a closer look at the Vandoren product sheet and figured out that the B45 Lyre might just be my best shot, since it's roughly halfway between the B40 and 5JB in terms of tip opening. I managed  to get my hands on one today – and boy, was I disappointed! With no. 1 reeds it made a horribly thin and aggressive sound, and with no. 2's it felt unwieldy and kept breaking up all the time (but maybe it's just me). I'm telling myself that it might still be a good piece for working on the basics, but at the same time I'm obviously not comfortable with getting one that doesn't feel right. Just when I thought that I'd started to figure this mouthpiece business out… ;-)

Any advice?

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« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2017, 04:55:13 PM »
Same story here, tried so many and finally settled with,

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/john-pierce-jazz-bb-clarinet-mouthpiece

You probably have to go though what most of us went through, is try as many you can until you find yours.
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« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2017, 12:22:07 PM »
Just when I thought that I'd started to figure this mouthpiece business out… ;-)

After 52 years of playing, I'm still not sure either! Keep trying.
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Offline a_hennig

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« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2017, 08:20:56 PM »
...a B40 and a 5JB. On both, I played around with Hot 'n' Swing reeds, strengths 1 and 2. The B40 had a pleasant feel to it but sounded far too "straight and narrow" to my taste, although surprisingly well considering it's really made for harder reeds. The 5JB  had a much more attractive  sound, deep and rich, but I'm afraid I just don't have the skills for it yet: too much air felt like it was just passing through and higher registers were simply out of reach for my beginner's embouchure.

Sounds about right to me. The narrower classical syle mouthpieces are intended to make it easier to keep a uniform sound and intonation. And I have noticed that, contrary to what superficial logic would indicate, softer reeds are not necessarily easier to play - they allow but also require more control on the part of the embouchure.

Quote
So I had a closer look at the Vandoren product sheet and figured out that the B45 Lyre might just be my best shot, since it's roughly halfway between the B40 and 5JB in terms of tip opening. I managed  to get my hands on one today – and boy, was I disappointed! With no. 1 reeds it made a horribly thin and aggressive sound, and with no. 2's it felt unwieldy and kept breaking up all the time (but maybe it's just me)...

For me, with the B45 mouthpieces I was using either 2 1/2 or 3 reeds, but I also narrow my reeds with a small hand plane (sharp blade, too) so that they are barely the width of the rails. This makes them feel a little softer, but keeps the control of the altissimo range that a stiffer reed is better for. Even though the A2's have a similar opening, they have more resistance, and I have switched to No2 Hot & Swing for them. I shave these reeds the same way I did the others, but take care not to damage the tape - it is not just decoration; these reeds are fairly flat and thin, and allow a lot of control of the typically difficult notes in the lower registers, but this configuration would normally give a poor high register. For some reason I do not understand the tape seems to help this.

I don't know if my own choices are of any help to you, but my main point is, you can't just assume that you can use the same reed with different mouthpieces. You have to try each mouthpiece with a number of different reed strengths and brands, and not just compare them to each other with the same reed.

Also I would suggest revisiting them again in nine months to a year, to see whether your embouchure development will still be best served with the same reed and mouthpiece combination.  (Does it ever end??   :grin: )

Offline Eleftarios

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« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2017, 07:56:18 PM »
It's the beginning of polka season, and here I am trying to get by! I played last night on Mitchell Lurie #3 and suffered greatly. Unamplified and blowing my brains out trying to fight the drunken bacchanal, I was pushing air so hard I was out of tune all night. It just doesn't work for me unless I use much harder reeds than most of you guys play on, but I really wish that in my old age I didn't have to work so hard to make a good noise. Oh well, back to 3 1/2 or better so I can make enough noise, and finish the gig without bleeding lips!

It also hurts to be German and playing all this junk every autumn that is not in the least bit German. I know hundreds of German songs, but all the hits I'm hired to play on clarinet at this time of year are not German. Pennsylvania Polkka is a Lawrence Welk hit, Beer Barrel Polka is the Andrews Sisters. I know hundreds of really cool Landler songs, but never get to play them at Oktoberfest gigs in North America. Well whatever, I know my role is to make noise and incite people to drink to excess. It has nothing to do with actually making music. Like Liberace once said, I cry all the way to the bank. It's good to be a clarinet player in the fall season as long as you can swallow your pride and just cash the cheques.

Offline a_hennig

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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2017, 08:40:42 AM »
Agree with you all the way on this, except that I would note that the Beer Barrel Polka has more history than that. Earliest title I know is Czech: Škoda lásky. I've seen a couple of versions of the history, but I know it's from that area. The German title is Rosamunde, which also predates Beer Barrel. Histories of this stuff is fascinating sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of really good stuff you don't have an appropriate audience for.

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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2017, 11:26:55 AM »
I really like the Zwiefacher tunes like "Eisenkeilnest" (mixed meters).
These are really fun to dance also!

"Eisenkeilnest" Zwiefacher

https://youtu.be/IePu4FJEOnk

https://youtu.be/J-wRwxaXxvo
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 05:57:37 PM by Kalakos »
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Offline Eleftarios

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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2017, 05:21:01 PM »
Loved that Kalakos! The first tune popped up as "Unavailable" but the second played. Very refreshing to hear the real thing.


Higher up in this thread someone mentioned that Beer Barrel Polka was derived from Rosamunde. Yes that's true as far as I understand. Nonetheless, the BB Polka in my part of the world is nothing more than a parody of German folk music. If I played an Arabic tune in the same spirit of inciting excessive drinking, the entire internet would be ready to heap approbations on me. We're not allowed to use the wrong language when talking about all the newcomers of recent years, but after more than 75 years it still seems acceptable to turn German culture into a drunken bacchanal every autumn, while the rest of the year looking at it solely around the magnetic Nazi pole that's portrayed daily on the History Channel. Germany is a great deal more than those few unfortunate years that have cast a shadow over the last century of euro-centric history books.


Sorry all if I appear to be on a rant, it just hurts me to see my my family's history turned into a cartoon of beer and sausage and vomit every autumn.

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« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2017, 05:47:35 PM »
Loved that Kalakos! The first tune popped up as "Unavailable" but the second played. Very refreshing to hear the real thing.


Higher up in this thread someone mentioned that Beer Barrel Polka was derived from Rosamunde. Yes that's true as far as I understand. Nonetheless, the BB Polka in my part of the world is nothing more than a parody of German folk music. If I played an Arabic tune in the same spirit of inciting excessive drinking, the entire internet would be ready to heap approbations on me. We're not allowed to use the wrong language when talking about all the newcomers of recent years, but after more than 75 years it still seems acceptable to turn German culture into a drunken bacchanal every autumn, while the rest of the year looking at it solely around the magnetic Nazi pole that's portrayed daily on the History Channel. Germany is a great deal more than those few unfortunate years that have cast a shadow over the last century of euro-centric history books.


Sorry all if I appear to be on a rant, it just hurts me to see my my family's history turned into a cartoon of beer and sausage and vomit every autumn.

I understand what you mean! Similarly, I get sick of requests for "Never On Sunday," "Miserlou," and "Zorba!"

Anyway I don't know why that video won't play for you, but here's another couple:

https://youtu.be/Fq-hjwDeJ5A

https://youtu.be/DfHcrsAygmU

There are many other different tunes, with different combinations of ¾ and 2/4 measures. Lots of fun for the dancers! "Eisenkeilnest" is my favorite Zwiefacher dance tune, but this is another melody used when I first learned the Zweifacher dances back around 1960.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 05:51:53 PM by Kalakos »
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2017, 05:22:30 PM »
Hey Kalakos those were great hits! Kinda makes me wonder about cross fertilization between east and west to hear German music follow that 3+3+2+2 metre. Almost Bulgarian ruchenitsa (3+3+2+3).


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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2017, 05:37:24 PM »
And for the other tunes, the greek gig I do approaches those in a a gonzo way: We don't play Zorba  -- period; Miserlou is only recognized here as a surf guitar hit so we don't have to play that either; N.O.S. is reserved for late in the evening when the Metaxa has taken full effect, and we just do a drunken thread of it for the gringo audience, followed by "Cloudy Sunday" for the greeks, then call it a night. Any greek in the audience will sing Cloudy Sunday, maybe soto voce if alone, but usually 2 or more greeks are present and throw money at us and cry. We call it the national anthem.

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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2017, 05:53:14 PM »
And for the other tunes, the greek gig I do approaches those in a a gonzo way: We don't play Zorba  -- period; Miserlou is only recognized here as a surf guitar hit so we don't have to play that either; N.O.S. is reserved for late in the evening when the Metaxa has taken full effect, and we just do a drunken thread of it for the gringo audience, followed by "Cloudy Sunday" for the greeks, then call it a night. Any greek in the audience will sing Cloudy Sunday, maybe soto voce if alone, but usually 2 or more greeks are present and throw money at us and cry. We call it the national anthem.

Sounds like fun!
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Offline a_hennig

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« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2017, 07:09:30 PM »
It's the beginning of polka season, and here I am trying to get by! I played last night on Mitchell Lurie #3 and suffered greatly. Unamplified and blowing my brains out trying to fight the drunken bacchanal, I was pushing air so hard I was out of tune all night. It just doesn't work for me unless I use much harder reeds than most of you guys play on, but I really wish that in my old age I didn't have to work so hard to make a good noise. Oh well, back to 3 1/2 or better so I can make enough noise, and finish the gig without bleeding lips!

So you got me thinking...  (That's one of my vices.)

Everyone in this group knows that you can use a French mouthpiece on a German clarinet; that's what most of us do. But the reverse is also true. Off season, you might want to experiment a little with German mouthpieces. They offer very little resistance - the reason for using those thick reeds is to have something to blow against. I use a thick # 4 reed on a Wurlitzer mouthpiece to get about the same amount of resistance as I get with a thin #2 on my crystal Vandoren A2. Even with that thick plank reed, you would need to use a much looser embouchure than most Boehm players use, but the reed is stiff enough to give you a solid sound at any volume level.

 To make sure, I tried my wooden Wurlitzer mouthpiece on my wife's Buffet R-13, and the result was a tone quality to drool over. I kept messing up the fingerings, though, so back to my German clarinets. Anyway, I proved to my satisfaction that it not only works, it works well.

Of course you could just go to a pickup.....   :grin:

Offline Eleftarios

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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2017, 01:14:49 PM »
That's an interesting avenue to explore. I use a Charles Bay, so an American mouthpiece, albeit technically the chedeville design and therefor French. I've never come across a bonafide German mouthpiece but I'd be eager to try one.


As for a pickup, I have the AMT mic system but it's no use for this gig. No PA system, we just stroll around the tables. It's not that the band is loud, it's the 200+ drunken college students screaming "Play Hava Nagila". Huh? Read a history book you idiots.


And I did have a wooden mouthpiece, grenadilla, that came with the bass clarinet I bought out of eastern europe a few years ago. I really willed it to work for me, but no way. Small tip and big chamber for a classical player. Kept it as a curiosity for a while, then sold it on eBay for a ridiculous price. If I had the skills and tools, I might have tried making some mods to it. Probably would have just destroyed it though.

Offline a_hennig

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« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2017, 05:59:06 AM »
[quote author=Eleftarios link=topic=7899.msg132434#msg132434 date=1504728889

As for a pickup, I have the AMT mic system but it's no use for this gig. No PA system, we just stroll around the tables. It's not that the band is loud, it's the 200+ drunken college students screaming "Play Hava Nagila". Huh? Read a history book you idiots.


Aah, I understand. I used to do the table to table thing with the Mexican trio music, and I loved it, but of course we working in a romantic atmosphere most of the time, rather than having to compete with the kind of party you're talking about.

Quote
And I did have a wooden mouthpiece, grenadilla, that came with the bass clarinet I bought out of eastern europe a few years ago. I really willed it to work for me, but no way. Small tip and big chamber for a classical player. Kept it as a curiosity for a while, then sold it on eBay for a ridiculous price. If I had the skills and tools, I might have tried making some mods to it. Probably would have just destroyed it though.

Just as in French style (i.e. Boehm typical - American mouthpieces are French style), individual German mouthpieces vary a lot and some will work on your clarinet and some will only give you a hard time, but what you described on your bass clarinet mouthpiece is essentially right. With that combination, even with a thick reed, there's a fairly low resistance, so you have to use a looser embouchure. What made me think it might be a good path to try is this, that at the end of a day at the Ren Fest, when my mouth is tired, it tries to revert to the old Boehm embouchure, which I can't sustain, and I have to remember to open up and loosen up which both is what the clarinet wants and is something I can sustain even though my mouth is tired. But it is a very different embouchure than I was trained to use, on Boehm here in the Northern US, which is why I suggested off season for the learning curve.

 

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